User: ninetydegrees Date: 2011-05-20 20:57 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

if you even dare to tell someone that they're maybe a bit heavier than normal, people get all huffy and assume that you're calling them fat.

What's normal?

User: sophie Date: 2011-05-20 21:10 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I made poor word choices here. I meant 'normal' in the mind of whoever hears the words, which may or may not be a healthy weight for them.

I actually edited that part slightly in response to an LJ comment, but I'm wondering how to address your comment too. The thing is, 'normal' as a mindset *does* exist and is different for everybody, but a generic 'normal' for everyone doesn't exist. And the mindset 'normal' may or may not be a healthy weight for that person, as I said. It's complex to go near these issues.

I hope I'm making myself clear!

User: ninetydegrees Date: 2011-05-20 21:16 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

The way I see it defined by most people, normal is thin. The way I see it defined by doctors, normal is what what is considered healthy for your height, age, etc. The thing is, if you're starting to use this word, to me, it completely demolishes your next point that there's nothing wrong with being fat or heavier or whatever because it implies that whatever is not normal.

Edited (clarification) 2011-05-20 09:17 pm (UTC)

User: sophie Date: 2011-05-20 21:26 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I'm not talking about an objective 'normal', though. I'm talking about a subjective 'normal', one which is more in line (but not necessarily completely in line) with how their weight has been so far for them.

Some people think that being fat is not 'normal' for them. This is about how they might think, which may or may not be what is a healthy weight for them. My problem is that these people, when told that they've "packed on a few pounds", invariably assume that they're being called 'fat', and assume malice behind that comment due to the negative connotations of the word that society has wrongly given it. My problem is how to make that clear in the post.

Am I making any goofs here?

User: ninetydegrees Date: 2011-05-20 21:28 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Heavier than usual? Or just what you said: put on weight a little.

Edited 2011-05-20 09:29 pm (UTC)

User: sophie Date: 2011-05-20 21:34 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

In a sense, that's better than my word choice, but it has the problem of still being objective. The "normal" I'm referring to could be considered a combination of 'usual weight' and 'ideal weight' as defined by the person in question (which may or may not be a healthy weight for them).

Nevertheless, I'll use "usual" for now until I can think of a better way to express what I mean, because it definitely seems better.

User: ninetydegrees Date: 2011-05-20 21:40 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Except it may not be understood that way. I would certainly have issues with people telling me I'm heavier than normal unless they explained because excuse me, normal for whom?

User: sophie Date: 2011-05-20 21:51 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Ah, that's where I went wrong! See, I hadn't intended it to mean that someone would actually *say* "heavier than normal" to someone else - I meant that the 'normal' part of it was assumed by the person hearing it. I completely didn't make that clear, though.

I'll edit it again now. :)

User: ninetydegrees Date: 2011-05-21 07:22 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

For me, the problem here is that generalization doesn't work. Who's noticing that? Who are they for you? How are they saying it? Why are they saying it? Is it a compliment (maybe they think you look better)? Is it a neutral remark? Is it gentle teasing they know you will take exactly for what it is? Is it more negative? You know that because you know the person, they've said it a certain way, you've heard their tone or seen their face or whatever means is used to communicate intent. "You've cut your hair" without any other context is also subject to interpretation even though it doesn't have the same negative connotations, of course.

The sentence I see here coming from an AI (?) in a game and having nothing to do with what you're supposed to do: not nice at all, especially since I can imagine that what they're saying when you've lost weight is at least a little mean too.

User: sophie Date: 2011-05-21 01:26 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Based on azurelunatic's comment below, I wanted to make clear that I didn't realise that "packed on a few pounds" was fat-shaming. I apologise for that. Given that, it lends a new perspective to the whole thing.

User: azurelunatic Date: 2011-05-21 01:00 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Interesting.

It sounds to me as if GlaDOS is taking an objectively neutral-to-good thing (undernourished is bad-bad-bad, so not-undernourished is avoiding a bad thing, and a "few pounds" heavier than a person's baseline weight is not much of a gain even when a person is looking to stay at baseline) and presenting it in a way calculated to insult: "pack on [...] pounds" is always fat-shaming.

This sounds typical of GlaDOS, who seems to be the sort of personality who cannot give any sort of compliment without -- I originally phrased it as "without a hidden barb", but on second thought it's more like "without packing it tightly inside a ball of nasty spikes and shooting it at you out of a cannon".

User: sophie Date: 2011-05-21 01:23 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I did not realise that the phrase was fat-shaming. Oh dear. :/ I tend not to realise these things...

User: marahmarie Date: 2011-05-21 03:00 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

"Congratulations. Not on the test. Most people emerge from (spoiler) terribly undernourished. I want to congratulate you on beating the odds and managing to pack on a few pounds."

Without fail, every one of the playthroughs I've watched has interpreted this as GlaDOS being mean and calling them fat.

Um. Could I just bee "the person who doesn't agree" for a moment? As a former anorexic, that quote strikes me as someone telling me I'm underweight. Which is equally offensive. Dear God. *rolls eyes*

User: sophie Date: 2011-05-21 03:19 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

I'm guessing it's the "few pounds" bit (ie. not much at all) that is offensive? Or am I missing something?

User: marahmarie Date: 2011-05-21 17:11 (UTC) Subject: (no subject)

Here's my take on it (and you're going to laugh, but honestly, this is how I take it):

Most people emerge from (spoiler) terribly undernourished [ in other words, 'too damn thin']. I want to congratulate you on beating the odds and managing to pack on a few pounds [in other words, 'your ribs aren't showing anymore, you scrawny thing']."

Now my take on it might be 1) quite hilarious, and indeed, to look at it objectively, it makes me laugh too, because after all, this is just a game we're talking about here.

But 2) again objectively-speaking, who is anyone who wrote or is in the game to tell me that I look like an undernourished scrawny thing whose ribs were showing? Who are they to even imply such a thing and why would they think to do so? Does doing so somehow help the game along?

I just think it's the weirdest way - and the weirdest arena in which to do so - to nonchalantly insult people's alleged appearances ever.

I'm guessing it's the "few pounds" bit (ie. not much at all) that is offensive?

I don't know. I've spent most of my life feeling self-conscious and horrible about people saying that I was too thin or teasing me for how I looked too thin, whereas for some reason being overweight does not make me feel like I "stick out" (and right now I'm neither thin nor overweight, just somewhere in-between, so I'm not feeling self-conscious about my weight anymore, thankfully) so I can't relate to that, but my apologies for not being able to do so to anyone who takes the seeming message about being overweight in that quote to heart.

But I can relate to the obvious "too thin" message in that quote just fine, and it really does bother me.

Edited (just tidying up) 2011-05-21 05:14 pm (UTC)